Towards Self-Sovereign Identity with Tykn Co-Founders, Khalid Maliki and Jimmy J.P. Snoek – Podcast Episode 35

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Let’s Talk About Digital Identity with Khalid Maliki, Co-Founder & Managing Director, and Jimmy J.P. Snoek, Co-Founder & CEO at Tykn.

Khalid and Jimmy join Oscar for episode 35 of the podcast, discussing everything Self-Sovereign Identity (SSI) and the SSI company they co-founded, Tykn. The conversation details the ‘three pillars of SSI’ (verifiable credentials, decentralised identifiers and blockchain), how SSI fits with existing processes, what it should appear as to end users (and what level of education they need around the technology), the importance of accessibility for inclusivity, and what’s next for Tykn.

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“In 5 years, people should take [SSI] for granted”

After many years working in UX at the Dutch Ministry of the Interior, Khalid’s keen product design knowledge combined with a passion for social impact led him to put all his time and efforts into co-founding the award-winning digital ID company Tykn. Khalid believes Self-Sovereign Identity will positively impact billions of people’s lives and has advocated for its adoption on the most important stages, from the Economic Forum in Africa to the United Nations in NYC. He considers one of his biggest achievements to have co-founded a happy family.

Find Khalid on LinkedIn and on Twitter @Khalidworks.

Jimmy J.P. is a musician, business developer and entrepreneur, currently residing in The Hague, The Netherlands. After having worked as a professional musician in Spain and having started his first company in The Netherlands before the age of 20, Jimmy was accepted into the prestigious McGill University in Montréal, Canada and co-founded the now award-winning digital ID company Tykn. As an evangelist of data privacy and an early adopter of crypto, Jimmy has spoken about the merits of blockchain and self-sovereign identity at conferences and institutions worldwide since 2017, and has been featured in multiple publications, including The Guardian.

Find Jimmy J.P. on LinkedIn and Twitter @idforgood.

Tykn leverages blockchain technology to bring trust, privacy, and interoperability to identity. Tykn’s Ana platform allows organisations to issue tamper-proof digital credentials which are verifiable anywhere, at any time. Users can prove their ID to access services while remaining in full control of what personal data is viewed, shared & stored.

Find out more at tykn.tech.

We’ll be continuing this conversation on LinkedIn and Twitter using #LTADI – join us @ubisecure!

­Go to our YouTube to watch the video transcript for this episode.

 

Podcast transcript

Let’s Talk About Digital Identity, the podcast connecting identity and business. I am your host, Oscar Santolalla.

Oscar Santolalla: Hello, and thanks for joining this new episode of Let’s Talk About Digital Identity. “A future of opportunity through digital identity” – so that’s what I read in the page of the guests we will have today, which is a young but very promising company called Tykn. They are working on a very interesting project and very interesting stories you are going to hear today from two guests. We have two guests today. So let me introduce to you my guests today.

First of all, Khalid Maliki. After many years working on user experience at the Dutch Ministry of the Interior, Khalid’s keen product design knowledge combined with a passion for social impact led him to put all his time and efforts into co-founding the award-winning digital ID company, Tykn. Khalid believes self-sovereign identity will positively impact billions of people’s lives and has advocated for its adoption on the most important stages, from the Economic Forum in Africa to the United Nations in New York.

And my second guest is Jimmy Snoek. Jimmy is a musician, business developer and entrepreneur, currently residing in The Hague, in The Netherlands. After having worked as a professional musician in Spain and having started his first company in The Netherlands before the age of 20, Jimmy was accepted in the prestigious McGill University in Montreal, Canada, and co-founded Tykn. As an evangelist of data privacy and early adaptor of crypto, Jimmy has spoken about the merits of blockchain and self-sovereign identity at conferences and institutions worldwide since 2017.

Hello, Khalid. Hello, Jimmy. Welcome.

Khalid Maliki: Hi, Oscar. Thank you for having us.

Jimmy Snoek: Hi. Thank you for having us.

Oscar: It’s great having you and I’m really intrigued to hear the stories of this very promising company and tools that you are building today. So, I would like to hear a bit more on about your journey. I know you’ve been doing very interesting things but how did you really end up in this world of digital identity?

Khalid: It has been quite a journey and also, when you are doing something that you hope that will impact people’s lives positively, it gives you a lot of energy. It gives you a lot of motivation and also inner resilience to really keep on what you’re doing. That’s actually what keeps me awake every morning.

So yeah, we started this journey since 2016 actually when the idea was born. And in 2017, we joined an accelerator in Amsterdam and the rest was history. We got a lot of traction due to being in conferences on different stages and also, partnering up in early stage with an international NGO. It gave us a lot of boost also and motivation to keep on what we are doing.

Jimmy: The same for me, it started with Tykn through crypto I guess, blockchain. I’ve been involved in that space for a little bit.

Oscar: Cryptocurrency you mean, right?

Jimmy: Yes. Yes, from bitcoin back in 2015. And it was this idea of – OK, that there’s something broken in an identity system where one billion people don’t have identifying documentation. At the time, perhaps naively at that time, I thought OK, so if we could just marry this blockchain technology with this identity problem, could we solve it? And that was kind of the premise but then ultimately through iterations, OK, this blockchain part is actually super small. But on the way, we did find other solutions for it that kind of funnelled into the concept of SSI.

Oscar: Yeah, and very, very interesting. So, you already mentioned the blockchain. It’s one of the pieces in what you are doing in self-sovereign identity but there’s much more than that. So, I would like to hear in the simplest way you can explain to us what is self-sovereign identity and how it differentiates from the other ways of identity that we have both the physical and the digital identities.

Jimmy: Sure. So, SSI, self-sovereign identity, essentially it’s the concept of a higher user autonomy over digital identity data or a personal data in general. So we went from the physical IDs that we still have in the real analogue world to the internet. And when the internet came about, it scaled rather fast without someone really saying, “OK, maybe we should stop and think of privacy or identity layer before we move onwards.” It kind of scaled so rapidly that there was never a chance to bake something into the internet.

And so, we came up with all these creative solutions along the way and where in the ‘90s it was common practice for just everyone to have their separate login credentials and everything per separate service provider and that kind of narrowed down into a more federated model where now a bunch of large players held a lot of this personal data and these identifiers for authentication and whatnot. And then more to a slightly more user-centric model with OAuth and FIDO came about. And now, this is kind of the next phase into really giving that back to the user and really making it user-centric, whilst at the same time minimising the data that has to be disclosed.

So for instance, in proving anything about ourselves on the internet right now, there was this famous New York Times comic on the internet, “No One Knows You’re a Dog,” which basically comes from the fact that it’s really hard to prove beyond reasonable doubt that I’m not a dog or that I’m Jimmy. I could send you a scan of my passport or whatever or a scan, but that can still be quite easily doctored, and there’s also still that degree of over disclosing our data because in our current credentials, there’s a lot of superfluous information when proving something about yourself and still a lot of this happens by having to upload these documents into several portals.

And with the concept of SSI also comes the fact that we have to minimise that amount of data, so either disclosed information about ourselves on attribute by attribute basis, or for other things such age or perhaps income, a mathematical proof, a zero knowledge proof, so that I don’t even have to show you my salary classifications or my income statements or my date of birth, but that I can prove to you that I am between X and Y, that I am over 18 or 21 years old, instead of giving you that actual data.

And so we wrote an ultimate beginner’s guide to self-sovereign identity that you can find on the website. And apart from that, a great resource on the high level of self-sovereign identity, you can find in one of the blogs from Christopher Allen back in 2016. He wrote this article called The Path to Self-Sovereign Identity where he lays out these 10 principles ranging from consent, persistence, portability, interoperability, and data minimisation, which also gives you a good view of the concept of self-sovereign identity.

And on a more technical base where we just talked about with blockchain, blockchain is one of these pillars of SSI in the sense that it’s a verifiable data registry within the concept of SSI. But what a lot of people at least three years ago and us also in the ideation stages incorrectly assumed is that just because there’s this blockchain component, it means that you are putting personal identifiable information on this distributed database for everyone to see, which is exactly what’s not happening. You can’t just hash your passwords and put that on a chain because for one, it’s not compliant to any sort of privacy regulation out there especially now with GDPR, but also, it’s for good reason because we also don’t know if such a ledger will ever be breached and then all that even hashed PII would be out there. And if it’s on a open-distributed database, of course, it’s still open to be correlated.

So, there are these two other pillars, one being verifiable credentials and the second being decentralised identifiers, and they’re both standardised by the World Wide Web Consortium, the W3C who also gave us the URL for instance. And the verifiable credential on one hand is essentially a way of digitally water marking data to essentially create natively digital credentials and kind of changing that mental model of just taking this passport and making a digital version of it, to essentially rethinking how credentials should work on the internet and really making it native to it.

And then the decentralised identifiers, which essentially now we use a host of different identifiers such as our email, our phone numbers, credit card, Facebook login, etc., which are of course sensitive to correlation and that has caused for a host of large breaches and all the way from targeted advertising which is whatever to election meddling. So, the tail of that is quite fat and long. And with decentralised identifiers, it’s basically giving back that bit of autonomy to the user and being able to make these peer-to-peer connections to other institutions or to other people to prevent that correlation and basically have that in their own hands again.

What that would look like in practice to have those three pillars together is that essentially if the Dutch government would want to give me a digital version of my passport, they would essentially create a verifiable credential for that, the Dutch government would have an identifier, a public identifier for themselves, a public DID that they would anchor on the ledger, on chain, and that is purely so that when then they issue me my verifiable credential, my passport, over another one of these peer-to-peer encrypted channels, and I want to use that passport to prove something about myself, that verifier can check on the ledger that it was issued by the real Dutch government at a certain point in time so that it’s not a fraudulent document. They can trust that “OK, I can see that the real Dutch government issued this, issued this document, it hasn’t been revoked since, it hasn’t been changed. And so, I can trust that Jimmy proving his age here or whatever or proving that he is a Dutch national or owns his passport. That is valid” And that’s essentially where those three pillars come together.

Another concrete example I can give from a personal story where my partner, she is from Winnipeg, Manitoba and she came to live here in The Netherlands, and we had to apply for a partner visa. And because she had thought ahead, luckily, she already got a legalised birth certificate and legalised passport copy and legalised marriage certificate, a divorce certificate, and even getting that birth certificate legalised copy. That’s an entire story of its own because it was so cumbersome.

But essentially, she got all this documentation, came to the Netherlands and then I had to go to Khalid and asked Khalid, “Hey, could you attest to me working for Tykn with a signature and an employee statement.” I had to go to our accountant and asked for a payslip, 12 months back to prove that I had been earning enough over the past 12 months. I had to get my passport and then essentially, we had to dump all this information into a government portal. And then we found out we needed another document which was a certificate of non-impediment to marriage abroad. And you can only get this in the country of origin. And luckily, The Netherlands and Canada have a good relationship so she could go to the embassy and get a statement in lieu of a certificate of non-impediment to marriage abroad. And she had to pay for this, and she had to make appointments and get a legalised copy for it that I could then upload.

And then I talked to Khalid about this, and he said like, “OK, well, if she would have been from Morocco, you would have had a problem because she would have to go back to Morocco. She would have had to fly back to Morocco to get this certificate.” And then still, we had to upload all this documentation into a portal and then some desk clerk will see this and go through it and approve it and we have no idea where that ends up, which is a scary notion. And I explained to her the concept of SSI and she quite succinctly said, “OK, so I essentially could have done all this from my phone?” I was like, “Yes, exactly.”

So yeah, that’s kind of succinctly SSI.

Oscar: Yeah, definitely that example especially shows what are the challenges that self-sovereign identity is trying to solve now because there are standards, correct? You told me there are standards already about these three pillars, for instance not too many governments, I don’t know if any, are currently using that as a solution.

Jimmy: Yeah, exactly. It’s still quite early stage also just because of the infrastructural technology has had to mature and also to the point where we can finally actually put it into reasonable production because before, theoretically it was possible, but it would essentially require anyone using it at any organisation to strip out their whole current system and replace it with a whole new system and build everything on top, and that’s of course not how anything gets adapted. It has to be a viable alternative to whatever is out there now with enough benefits whether it would be in cost saving or reducing friction or increasing revenues or whatever. And now, we are finally getting to the point where we’ve developed the technology enough that it’s a viable alternative.

Oscar: Can you tell us now about some of the projects, the main projects you have been working now with your products?

Khalid: Yeah, I can take that one. To start first, a lot of identity systems and the way how we opt in identities in the West and in more developed countries, most of the time, we take it for granted, right? And we don’t really feel the pain. I mean this is of course a story that resonates with everyone.

But what really triggered us to do something about this is the fact that Jimmy already mentioned that there are more than a billion people undocumented, and they don’t have even the basic rights to have access to education, healthcare, banking, and be like part of society. And sometimes the struggles they are feeling sometimes come from very simple logistical challenges like they just don’t have enough money to take a bus to another region or city to register a child’s birth, to the other extreme where people are really losing their identities because of man-made and natural disasters.

And we saw that this is actually a very big problem. Luckily in the identity space, especially digital identity, there are a lot of actors actively improving the status quo. And I’m not talking only about self-sovereign identity. I’m talking about digital identity in general. And within that space, you have of course the SSI community who is actually bringing this extra higher level of privacy and autonomy.

But what we did really missed out in that whole ecosystem is that there are almost none who are focusing on the vulnerable people, the people that really are on the frontline and feeling the pain of losing their identities or not having one in the first place. And we saw that during the influx of refugees, especially Syrian refugees to Europe back in 2014 and before. We met people that are engineers or doctors, and they couldn’t prove their credentials or their diplomas because there are no universities anymore that we can just pick a phone and call them to verify if they have obtained their diploma. And then you see that these people either are stocking shelves at the grocery store or doing other work because they simply can’t prove that.

So, the projects that we really focused on since the beginning is how can we bring a more access to these people to a better livelihood, to be included in job markets, to have more access to simple services? And that of course is not directly by giving them an identity but giving them an opportunity and that’s we focused on.

And we partnered up from since the beginning with The Netherlands Red Cross that we did a few pilots with, one of them is in Saint Martin the Caribbean, and the other ones were in Ukraine for example, and now in Africa, Kenya, and other countries, where we help the NGO at least to come up with a system because, the problem they are having is of course they need to handle and process a lot of personal data, and that’s also during a crisis or after crisis. And once they leave that country, they need to kind of, “What are we going to do with the data?” We need also to be GDPR compliant, and we need to comply with all other regulations and laws.

So how can we give this kind of autonomy back to the people affected, without compromising on having a honeypot or avoiding having a honeypot of data because they become a target themselves and then you get these breaches especially when it comes to the most vulnerable people.

The most recent project for example which I think we are really proud of is what we have done in Turkey together with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the United Nations to develop a programme in Turkey with other partners that partnered up to improve the livelihood of Syrian refugees. As we know Turkey hosts more than I think it was around 4 million Syrian refugees and it’s also the highest population of refugees in the world, and they need to kind of integrate in society and become as one part.

The problem is that we went there with certain assumptions that “OK, let’s see how we can help them with giving them a platform or a digital identity that would help.” All the assumptions we had to throw out of the window because we thought they have this temporary protection card that they would get from the government to prove that they are who they are, but it was like the least of their problem at that time.

So, what really matters for them for example is being included in the job markets and have more opportunity there. And we saw that OK, there was actually a very cumbersome process when an entrepreneur or a business owner in general either being a refugee or not is able to hire more refugees and so creating more opportunities. And in that case, we said, “OK, let’s improve that process and through our platform, just making it possible for the business owner to apply for a work permit, so that he will be able to hire those refugees and give them more opportunity.”

Oscar: Yes. Well, it’s super interesting this project, the last project in Turkey definitely, it has many people impact so definitely it’s excellent what you are doing there. Now I’m understanding more how it works in practice with people. But the core foundations of this self-sovereign identity are relatively complex and we are now going to dig into that. It feels like OK; this is definitely amazing as a concept. You are telling us how it can solve problems.

But when I want to use it, it feels like there’s no easy way to use it. So, I would like to know how you have been tackling the problems about the usability, how to make it really easy for anybody to use applications like this.

Khalid: I can start and if you want to elaborate on that, Jimmy, as well then, you’re welcome. That’s actually a main point. That was one of the main reasons I joined Tykn because talking about such a cutting-edge technology always comes with a very high bar of how we can educate people to use this technology.

But in fact, it doesn’t really matter. No one knows how we are using an email. It just works. No one knows the underlying technology. And of course, because this is a new technology, in the first three to four years, we were talking about this technology itself which doesn’t matter to people. They don’t give a sh*t about it. Sorry for the word. What really needs to matter for them is just an ability to have a very simple interface intuitively designed, they can understand, and they can get the job done. That’s it. Period.

So, what we have achieved to do for example in Turkey is that people have an application which kind of mimics the conversational apps as we know like the WhatsApp and the Facebook because everyone is used to those. When we did the ground research, we saw that all refugees or most of them have- there is a high penetration of smartphones in Turkey, and they’re all part of communication application that we are using because that was also one of the main resources of information.

So we mimic that in our user experience and make it like someone is assisting you and we call the app “Ana”,            which actually stands for “I am” in Arabic, but Ana is also nice name – so it’s Ana helping you out to do your paperwork in an easy way. So, for them, it was like, oh, before this, I had to go to different institutions, obtain different proofs and combine that in a dossier and then send it out to be able to apply for the work permit, or having an intermediary which costs us a lot of money and that is also cumbersome. So for them, it was like a different step from that to having just an application, get some proofs from let’s say a Chamber of Commerce that you own a business, get proof from an accounting firm about your accounting report and then just with one click, you apply for a work permit. And that was like a wow moment because that’s what needs to work.

Of course, you need to give a feeling of the mental model of ‘this is a safe environment where you are sharing data to someone’. That’s also very important to give that. But on the other spectrum, they say, “OK, with few clicks, I can share data with another institution without even leaving the comfort of my home or environment.”

Jimmy: If I elaborate on that from one step higher, what I talked about previously in terms of offering a viable alternative, the use of the technology should not be obstructed by the current processes. So it shouldn’t have to ask an organisation to completely rip out that current infrastructure and replace it with this new, shiny technology. No. It should be able to be an extension of what’s already there for the purpose of adoption. It should be able to be easily integrated.

And that’s also something that we found was – at the end of the day, we provide the tools to make this happen. When we talk about these identifying documents, for instance the project in Turkey that Khalid just mentioned, we did that together also with the Istanbul Chamber of Commerce and the UNDP, the Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs, which of course Tykn giving out any sort of permits that doesn’t mean anything. We don’t have that authority. We should be leveraging the existing players in the space and that is kind of counterpoint to some on the more utilitarian SSI side. There are a few but nonetheless, the ones who think, “Oh yeah, finally everything is self-sovereign, and we can just attest to each other’s existence and we don’t need the government anymore.” Of course, it’s not reality.

The existing bastions of trust should be leveraged in order to be able to use this technology to give more autonomy to the users. And for us, the way to do that concretely is by making sure that the organisations that want to use this technology with all its merits do not per se need to have a whole different application and don’t per se need to upend or uproot their entire technical infrastructure but could also do this on API basis.

So in Turkey, we built a web portal and IOS Android applications but we also made it clear that for other organisations who want to use this, all those actions that we showed in terms of issuing, verifying credentials, giving of consent and everything, everything can be done on API basis as well, which makes it a lot more attractive because now it’s like, “Oh, OK. So it’s actually a viable alternative now for other services out there so I can actually compare and also just on a cost basis, how this measures up with what’s currently out there.”

And that also goes for things like unified logins or single sign-on like, “Oh, I can look Auth0, but I can also look at this alternative which is competitively priced and it allegedly has this higher security and less friction and better privacy implication.” So I can at least look at it or at least get someone to build a POC for me or build an MPP internally and then we can play with it and see how that works.

 

And lowering that bar for other organisations that are outside of our little identity bubble to actually start playing with it, that for us was also important because at the end of the day, you don’t want to keep pushing this technology. At some point, you just want there be a whole lot of pull just because it scales a lot faster that way.

Oscar: So you consider the application if you see only from the citizen, from the end user point of view that your application already has been, in terms of usability, easy to do all the steps needed from the end user point of view?

Jimmy: Yes. So that’s what’s Khalid just touched on that from the end user point of view it should just feel like magic. There should not be any implication of knowing what blockchain is or even verifiable credentials. It should essentially feel like magic. And what we’ve been saying in developing this and developing the product Ana itself is that in two, five years, whatever, people should take this for granted in the same way that now when you go to the grocery store and you have an iPhone with your debit cards in there and you click the off button twice and you get your Apple wallet, and you pay. People take that for granted now. Five years ago, you couldn’t do that. We still had to carry our wallets with our different debit and credit cards in there. The only reason I still have a wallet is because I still have my insurance card, ID card, and all those things. So, in a similar way, people should be taking this for granted.

And on the other hand, it should be easy for the organisations to start using it. Now we’re at that inflection point on the technological development that now that has become easy. So, it’s not like an organisation needs to have a whole dev team trained, because even training a dev on the theory of SSI and being able to get started to develop something, it can take 8 weeks to train one developer. That’s a high barrier for any organisation to make that build decision. And you don’t want them to have to because if all those organisations need to make that build decision, it’s going to take forever. So, they need to have a viable buy decision somewhere of being able to leverage this. And yeah, we are at that inflection point now where we can finally make that easy to do.

Khalid: I want to add here that also, it should be accessible in the sense that of course, a lot of these approaches and solutions are very technology-driven, but as Jimmy said, it shouldn’t matter for the end user and it should be also accessible for all. And what I mean with accessible for all is think about the millions of people that don’t even have a smartphone or even a feature phone is one of the first assets maybe of a whole tribe. Sometimes you see like villages in Africa, we have also been there in for example, Kenya, where only the village chief has a phone for the rest of them. So how are you going to manage the identities for those people if it’s giving them access to other services? So, it should also be inclusive for a low tech or even a non-tech environment and not only for the futuristic stories that we hear all the time.

Oscar: Yeah, exactly. Definitely it’s good that you mention for the person who doesn’t have a mobile phone with basic smartphone capabilities and also easy access to internet as well, because for still in the coming years, a big part of the people won’t have access to that.

So, I would like to hear more now what you see for the future about your plans for Tykn and also, what are type of use cases that you think you will be solving in the coming future?

Jimmy: I think jumping off from what Khalid just said, there has been a really big focus on SSI on the lowest-hanging fruit for development which has of course been smartphones. But something that’s quite terrifying to us is if this technology scales so fast, you’re going to leave a lot of people behind. And just what Khalid said in terms of feature phone and making it feature phone accessible, that’s something that we’ve been working on also with an NGO to be able to test this.

And to be able to do that, we are rolling out a new service, Ana Cloud. And with Ana Cloud, essentially, all these operations can be done on API basis which also makes it a lot easier to develop this for feature phones. So, the integration for that we are going to be very much looking forward to, to not leave so many people behind. Yeah, that’s our main focus right now, scaling out Ana Cloud, getting people to use it, scaling up our project in Turkey and scaling out feature phone capabilities and at the same time, pushing the rest of the Ana platform.

Oscar: OK. Excellent. We are almost at the end of this interview. I would like you to leave us, both of you, some ideas and practical advice for anybody to protect their identity data.

Jimmy: I can go first. Especially because Ubisecure of course is an identity company and Tykn is an identity company, people listening are probably at least interested in identity so it might be kind of a dead horse to beat but password managers, people. I still meet so many people who don’t use password managers and who don’t consider the fact that they should be changing their passwords or using different passwords and they have no idea that that, “Oh yeah, I hadn’t thought about that being a security implication.” And I see even people with an identity who don’t use it even though it’s so easy and convenient to get that started. Something like 1Password or LastPass, I think there are even some open-source alternatives out there as well. So, the biggest thing you can do if you haven’t already is just get a password manager.

Khalid: You picked my tip, Jimmy. But nonetheless, I have another one. Yeah, I think that’s very important. And I hope actually the development is going towards actually passwordless access. That’s not widely adapted yet but it’s really still going to have to prove itself. I would say, don’t put your sensitive data on paper. That’s also what we see very commonly. To be honest, not being hypocritical, I did it as well. I put my password in just some paper. And then if you don’t start the correct way, you would lose a lot of access to basic services and it’s a very cumbersome process to get it again.

Jimmy: I really like that point because that’s actually what got me to use a password manager is that just being in the cryptocurrency space, with bitcoin and all these other blockchain projects, the times that I’ve lost a password to a wallet and I could see money sitting in that wallet and not being able to access it anymore, that for me was the breaking point of, “OK, I should get a password manager.” And that was just because I lost the notebook or a piece of paper that I put the seed words on or whatever. So, I thought, “OK, if I’d just gotten a password manager, that would have paid for years and years of this.” So yeah, absolutely.

Oscar: OK. Thanks a lot for your tips. It was great talking with you, understanding more what you have been doing in Tykn. Amazing stuff you are doing now. I like to hear the progress on these projects that you’re having today such as in Turkey, and of course, how it’s on your mind that every product, not only the technology but the real product that you are building, you are thinking of the people who could be left behind. So that we should not leave behind anybody.

So thanks a lot for that. Please let us know how people can find you either personally or the company or the products you have.

Jimmy: Yeah. Yeah. You can find us on Tykn.tech. That’s T-Y-K-N.tech, T-E-C-H. And you can find there like I said an ultimate beginner’s guide on self-sovereign identity. You can find us on Twitter under @tykntech. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram. Personally, I am @idforgood on Twitter. So that’s just @idforgood, one handle.

Oscar: Again, Jimmy and Khalid, it was a great pleasure talking with you and all the best.

Khalid: That’s was really fun, Oscar. Thanks for having us.

Oscar: Thanks for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk About Digital Identity, produced by Ubisecure. Stay up to date with episodes at ubisecure.com/podcast or join us on Twitter @ubisecure and use the hashtag, #LTADI. Until next time.

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