Closing the Digital Identity Public Trust Gap with Joni Brennan, DIACC – Podcast Episode 92

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Let’s talk about digital identity with Joni Brennan, President of the Digital ID & Authentication Council of Canada (DIACC).

In episode 92 Joni Brennan joins Oscar to discuss how the Digital ID & Authentication Council of Canada (DIACC) are working to close the digital identity public trust gap – including the key findings from the DIACC’s 2022 research and how this can inform future policies, the issues with poorly designed solutions and the importance of balancing accessibility and ease with privacy and security within these solutions. As well as discussing how education and awareness can help bridge the gaps and what can be done within governance and policy to support digital identities, transparency and data control.

[Transcript below]

“So, I think this is a call to action for us to continue to work together to provide people with the option so that they can do what they need to do in a safe and secure way.”

Joni Brennan is President of the Digital ID & Authentication Council of Canada (DIACC). Building on 15+ years of experience in Identity Access Management innovation, adoption, and industry standards development. Joni helps the DIACC to fulfil its vision delivering the resources needed to establish a digital identity ecosystem that accelerates the digital economy, grows Canada’s GDP and benefits all Canadians. Joni builds diplomatic and impactful relationships and formalises strategic partnerships. She has participated in influential committees from organisations including: SCC Data Governance Initiative, OECD ITAC, ISOC, IEEE, OASIS, ISO, and ITU-T.

Before joining DIACC Joni was Kantara Initiative’s Executive Director driving programs for business, legal, and technology interoperability to connect entities and individuals in a more trustworthy environment. Joni lead Kantara Initiative as the United States premiere trust framework provider. Delivering value to multiple industry sectors. She helped to ensure that the Kantara Initiative program is aligned with multiple eGovernment strategies. From economic regions including: Canada, New Zealand, Sweden, and the United Kingdom.

Joni Brennan previously served as the first-ever IEEE-SA Technology Evangelist for Internet Identity and Trust. Focusing on issues of governance, policy, and technology development that touch digital Identity, personally identifiable information, and trust services.

When not connecting the digital identity world for the better Joni can be found skiing in beautiful British Columbia, Canada. She can also be found playing flute or synthesizers in future thinking musical collaborations.

Connect with Joni on LinkedIn. Find out more about DIACC at diacc.ca or follow it on Twitter @mydiacc or on LinkedIn.

Take a look at the Canadian Digital Identity Research 2022 Document, in English or French.

Joni first joined Let’s Talk About Digital Identity podcast in Season 1 Episode 6. Why not take a listen to the episode on Building Canada’s Digital Identity Future.

We’ll be continuing this conversation on Twitter using #LTADI – join us @ubisecure!

Go to @Ubisecure on YouTube to watch the video transcript for episode 92.

Podcast transcript

Let’s Talk About Digital Identity, the podcast connecting identity and business. I am your host, Oscar Santolalla.

Oscar Santolalla: Hello and thank you for joining us on new episode of Let’s Talk About Digital Identity and I’m super happy to bring a former guest back, she is joining for the second time. One reason is that there has been released, super interesting results on her research. Especially in a vast country like Canada.

So, our guest today is Joni Brennan. She is the president of the Digital I.D. and Authentication Council of Canada, DIACC. Building on more than 15 years of experience in identity and access management, innovation adoption and industry standards development. Joni helps the DIACC to fulfil its vision by delivering the resources needed to establish a digital identity ecosystem that accelerates the digital economy, grows Canada’s GDP and benefits all Canadians.

Joni builds diplomatic and impactful relationship and formalises strategic partnerships. She has participated in influential committees from organisations including SCC Data Governance Initiative, OECD, IEEE, OASIS, the ISO, among others.

Hello, Joni.

Joni Brennan: Hello, Oscar. Great to be back.

Oscar: Yes, welcome back. Super nice having you. So again, we are here to talk about digital identity. Even though some of our listeners might have heard you before, I think four years back. Please tell us about yourself and this journey that you have to the world of identity.

Joni: Well, thank you so much for the invitation. In terms of my personal journey in the world of digital identity, I think it’s been just a bit over 20 years now, working in this space. And really starting in the, and all of this career, in the non-profit sector. Working with private sector and public sector, helping to develop standards and frameworks. Particularly focusing on risk management frameworks now, that help to contextualise the way that standards and open source have been implemented. To help to manage risks and help decision makers and adopters to make better decisions about which kinds of solutions they would like to adopt.

So, it certainly has been a journey moving from classic identity federation and single sign on now to web3 and distributed ecosystems. So, there are some things that have changed, but then there are also some core foundational concepts and thematics that have stayed the same. It’s great to be here to discuss the topics with you today.

Oscar: Fantastic. As I said, one of the main reasons to discuss is that there is a very interesting report. Actually, I have it here in front of me, it’s the – title; Canadian Digital Identity Research 2022. Of course, I am sure it has taken a few years to gather and process all this information. It is a very nicely designed document and also many of those findings were like, ‘Wow’. Super interesting how things are going in Canada and I’m sure some of these findings will be similar in some other countries as well.

So, we’d like to hear more deeply a few of these findings and what we can learn. If we start telling us some of these key findings from this report.

Joni: Yeah, thanks so much. I find the research to be interesting as well. The research – we’ve developed four consecutive years now of research, and so the latest report is the data from 2022. So, some things that are interesting about that, as well, is that we began to perform this research; before COVID happened, during COVID, and now arguably, I would say post-COVID or the next phase. So, it’s been interesting to see both kind of how the space is developed and how people’s perceptions have developed over that period of time.

One of the reasons that we’ve done this research is that we found that in the Canadian ecosystem there wasn’t this kind of ‘perspectives research’. We spend a lot of time working together as practitioners, whether we’re working with policy, technology or business processes. We’re often speaking with practitioners that are in the space. So, to have the opportunity to better understand and quantify the perspectives of people, who may not be practitioners. Maybe they do understand the space, maybe a little bit, maybe not so much. So, to have the ability to have a better perspective on what people are thinking, about the work that we’re doing, this is very valuable. And of course, putting people at the centre of the work that we do is a priority. So having these perspectives is quite important.

Because we’ve done this research annually over the course of four years. What we have done as well as we’ve asked some questions each year to have baseline, to have trend lines. To know, how has the perception changed, year over year, over the course of four years? Or maybe that perception has not changed, maybe it’s stayed the same over the course of four years. So, we’ve seen that timeline. That’s been an interesting feature. And then each year we have also customised some of the questions. So that, we could ask the questions of the participants that were, maybe, more specific to what was happening in the world at that time. So, I think it’s a great opportunity to see what people are thinking, both at a point in time and in over time.

Now, how did we perform the research? Well, the research has been developed through a third-party research firm, so they manage the sample, the participation sample. To make sure that it has diversity and that it’s really asking questions to Canadians across our country, from one side to the other. As well as, we have two official languages in Canada, French and English, so as well as making sure both official languages have been consulted. So, we’ve had some regional findings as well, as we’ve gone forward.

With that, maybe I’ll share some of the key findings from the survey.

So, what I would say is that when we started this survey four years ago, this research. We asked people, first of all, do they understand the words ‘digital identity’? And I can say that for the first three years, people did not. Less than half felt that they had somewhat understanding of the words ‘digital identity’. So, without assistance, they could produce a kind of, a definition of digital identity. Now, last year, the fourth year of our research, for the first time, we’ve seen more than 50% feel that they have some understanding of digital identity without being assisted.

So, while the findings, I would say, are arguably low. Meaning less than 50% had some understanding for years, one, two and three. There is a sign that education, and knowledge, and awareness has been growing over each year. Now with just over half understanding. So, it’s a good trend line, meaning that education and awareness has grown. So, I think that’s interesting. It also helps us to know what kind of language we should be using when we’re speaking with people, what they might understand or where more education.

Now, this year we also saw in 2022, we also asked people what was their perception of the impact that digital identity could have on their lives. And I think positive news, the impact more than 55% of respondents felt that digital identity had a positive impact on their lives. And really, this was to manage records, to be able to have electronic boarding passes, things that were really around convenience and doing business anywhere and everywhere. So, this is great news. So, people feel that there is a positive impact, more than half.

Now, that said, 23% do remain unsure about the type of impact that digital identity has on their life. And so now we see that the 23% this is a group that we need to focus on. So, they don’t know if digital identity will help them or if it will harm them. So, there we see – okay, this is a place where we can educate that 23% on; What are the privacy impacts? What are the security impacts regarding digital identity? And how can that improve their lives for the better? So that’s a place to spend some time for education.

Now, the remainder felt that digital identity had a negative impact on their lives. And we do know, of course, people are free to have perceptions, positive, unsure, negative, as they so choose. But we do know as well in the Canadian ecosystem, there has been quite a bit of misinformation and disinformation, mal information. And primarily that type of information is moving in what I would call unauthenticated spaces. So, Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, places where information can become viral and sometimes that information isn’t verified. Sometimes it’s being spread by mistake and sometimes it’s being spread with bad intent. So, we know that that’s been a challenge in the Canadian ecosystem and that maybe part of the group that feels a negative impact in their lives.

So, our focus will be on the 23%. To help them to better understand the space so that they can make better decisions about their perception of the type of impact that digital identity can have on their life.

Now, we have also seen, year over year, for four years, we’ve collected some demographic information about the types of people who are responding, and the types of people who are most interested, and feeling the benefits most, and most interested to use digital identity or most interested to also learn more about digital identity. And year over year, the people who are most interested and most looking forward to the benefits that digital identity brings are what we call the caretakers. So, the caretakers tend to be parents who are taking care of children alone or dependents in their home. So, this could also be senior caretakers. Whether they’re in the home or outside of the home. So, these are people who are taking care, really caregiving in all aspects of their life as well as taking care of themselves.

So, these people have the most interest to use digital identity to help to manage their care, so primarily tracking health care records and school and government registrations, for example. These are seen as the primary benefits. And these are the people who are most feeling pressure to manage data, to manage access to data, and really need that extra help, that these types of technologies can provide people. The conveniences and the security that can provide people in their life. These are the people that I think is a great area of focus for the work that we do. Caregivers are also workers. Caregivers are also students. And so, in all aspects of their life, they feel that this is something that can help.

In the Canadian ecosystem as well, we do have some, what I would call paradoxes. Meaning we do also each year, year over year, ask people their willingness to share personal information online if it makes their life more convenient. And what we’ve seen over time is there has been a slight rise in people’s willingness to share their personal information. And so, for example, in 2021, 75% were willing to share information, personal information for convenience. That went up to 78% in 2020 to be willing to share personal information if it meant that they would have more convenience in their lives.

Now, that said, again paradoxically. The same amount of people just around 75% between 73 and 75%, also having the highest concerns about personal information being compromised. So, yes, while people are willing to share information for their convenience. They’re equally concerned about their information being compromised through identity theft or through hacking and through other means. So, we need to be aware that people are both feeling the desire for convenience, but they’re also very concerned along the way.

So, when we think about that 23%, again, who are unsure about digital identity. We can help them to better understand where digital identity can help people to manage their information and get convenience while protecting themselves online. I would say that this is a paradox, but also something that we can help. And we can support by working together with more education.

Now, year over year, for four years, we have also asked people about their preferences regarding the way forward on digital identity. So, what we’ve asked them is basically three options. Would people prefer public sector and private sector to work together on a framework? On an approach, a collaborative approach of public sector and private sector. We’ve also asked them would they prefer government to move alone and take the lead? Or would they prefer private sector to move alone and take the lead?

And I can say that year over year and in fact, we’ve seen growth to 71% of respondents. They believe that collaboration is the best way forward of the public and private sector. And their thoughts on that for why is because they felt that public sector and private sector, by working together, would have more checks and balances on each other. To make sure that each was behaving with the best interests of the client, the customer, the citizen. They really like that collaborative approach, and that’s grown over time up to 71% in the last year.

Now, typically year over year, the people who prefer only government to take the lead or only private sector to take the lead has been a bit of a split. Tends to be around 17% wanting one or the other to go the pathway alone. And in this year, this last year we actually saw a little bit of a change in that research where, for the first time, the preference for public sector was private sector.

There was a little bit of a lower preference this last year for public sector to go alone. So, the finding was 12% prefer the government only to take the lead, with 17% preferring that private sector only take the lead. And I think this is actually – if people have reviewed the Edelman’s Trust Barometer and trust overall as a trend globally in the public. There does seem to be an erosion of trust in large institutions and in new technologies as well, we should say. So, seeing the trust in government a bit lower this last year, I think maps as well with the global trending lines that we’ve seen in the Edelman Trust Barometer research as well. So not entirely surprising and common with what we’ve seen around the world.

Now, unsurprisingly, we’ve also since as we started, we’ve done this research before COVID, during COVID and now post-COVID ecosystem. And while we were in the middle of the pandemic challenges, we asked people if the requirements of the pandemic made people feel that it was more important for them to have access to digital identity that was secure and trusted and privacy enhancing. And people felt absolutely, 66%/67%, over the two years that we asked that question. People thought; Yes, COVID was driving a need for that secure and privacy enhancing digital identity capabilities. So, of course, we think about working from home and social distancing, so people absolutely connected the benefits of digital identity with the things that we were going through at the time.

We also have asked some questions, and I’ll share actually what I think is one of my favourite findings right now. And then we’ll talk a little bit more about some specific capabilities. But I think for me my favourite finding over the last two years has been we asked people ‘do they want to have access to personal information that’s issued and collected about them by public sector and private sector, and do they want the ability to use that information?’ So, we’ve asked that question for two years now, and actually we’ve seen the highest numbers we’ve ever seen on our research over four years regarding this question.

And so, people responded overwhelmingly, 92%, that they want to know and have access to data that’s issued and collected by our federal government and by our provincial or jurisdictional governments in Canada. And so, what this says to me is that – while the words ‘digital identity’ are challenging for people to understand. What exactly does this mean? When we asked people, do they want personal data control and transparency right away without a lot of education, very high number, 92% want to have access control to personal data.

That was followed very closely by 87%. So, they want that same access and control, 87% of data that’s collected by the private sector. So, I think, again, right away, emotionally, people understand personal data control. It’s something they demand no matter what their background, their culture, their politics, their region. Everyone wants to have transparency and control to data about themselves. So, I think that’s just a fantastic finding. And rarely have we ever seen in fact, never have we seen numbers that high in our research.

Now, I share this finding because I think it very much sets up some specific capability finding around digital wallets, something that’s an emerging space. So, whether we’re thinking about the concept of the digital wallet or a trusted container of some sort. Over the last two years, we’ve asked questions specifically about digital wallets, concepts around digital wallet to work. There’s a degree of personal information sharing and personal information control that has to happen. So that’s why I wanted to set that up with that primary finding.

So, over the course of the last two years, we have seen the familiarity of the concept; What is a digital wallet? We’ve seen that rise. And so, the first year that we asked it was 54%. And it’s actually gone up to 59% in the last year of the research. So, people are understanding the concept of the digital wallet. What it is, what it means and why it’s important to them. When we’ve asked people about their use of digital wallets in 2021, we saw around 38% of people reported that they were using some kind of digital wallet and that rose to 41% in 2022, of respondents saying that they were actually using digital wallets.

And so, of those digital wallets, the highest usage recorded was of the Apple wallet. And so, in 2022, roughly a quarter, 24% were using the Apple wallet, with the remainder of the usages on wallets being spread, Samsung Pay was the next highest and then third-party wallet providers after that.

Why are people using digital wallets? They really like contactless payment, less clutter and less concerned about losing their cards, their plastic or physical cards. They feel that these are the benefits of using a digital wallet. So again, the setting up this ecosystem for personal data control. So, whether it’s the type of wallet that we might be familiar with, on the phone or some kind of trusted container or network. This all requires the ability to share information and to have data control. This is something that people are demanding without a lot of education.

So, all in all for the audience, I would say is – be aware that your customers and your clients, they may be challenged to understand, what those words ‘digital identity’ means. They may have different ideas. Among them, what the words ‘digital identity’ means. And so, there’s some education that can be done likely with your audience, and particularly for us, for our ecosystem. Again, we’re focusing on that 23% and really educating them about the privacy and the security protection that can be found, that can be achieved by using digital identity capabilities. And so that’s the place that will focus as we continue to move forward in our ecosystem in Canada.

And I think it’s reasonable to say that it’s probably a similar finding around the world. We might see some differences for countries that are a bit more advanced. But I do think we’re going to find some commonality, in each region around the world. And even within our customers, whether we’re thinking about their personal lives and their personal transactions. Or the way that they manage their data at work or at school. I think these findings are very valuable no matter what the lens or the ecosystem that we’re looking at.

So hopefully the audience will find that information helpful.

Oscar: Indeed, quite revealing many of the very useful facts that you have. Just share with us. Actually, one of the first one, the understanding or awareness of the concept itself of digital identity. Is quite revealing that you have evidence that it has grown. So people are understanding more. The concept is getting more familiar.

So, I don’t know how you ask them, but I guess you ask them to elaborate, right? So, you understand – ‘What is digital identity – and people have to elaborate in their own words.

Joni: We just ask them; What do you think digital identity is? So, we ask them to try to produce a definition that the research asked them. And then we measure, were they very confident, were they are able, with their definition, accurate. Or were they not confident and did they need some help? And so, at that point in the research, depending on their ability to answer the question about what they believe digital identity is. There would then be a degree of assistance. If they weren’t sure they’d be provided with a definition, so that they could then move forward in the rest of the research with a common understanding as they answered more questions going forward.

Oscar: Very well done. And the other thing you mentioned one paradox, so people are more willing to use the digital identity solutions, but at the same time, I’m more concerned about the privacy issues or protecting their data. So that’s also very interesting is good in old census because people are using more tools, but at the same time consciousness is increasing.

Joni: Yeah, I think for me at least, I think that this finding really is part of a call to action to say identity management practitioners who are working together to identify the risks, to mitigate the risks, to provide better solutions for citizens, clients, customers and residents. We really are responsible to move forward together in this space in a way that’s designed around people where benefits, managing their risks and their needs.

Because without the work that we’re doing, they’re going to take part anyway. Maybe they’re going to take pictures of their driver’s license or send me an email. And I know I have you’re not supposed to do this. But sometimes when you need to get what you need to get to on the other side of the transaction, you do what you have to do, right? So, I think we’ve all been there. So, I think this is a call to action for us to continue to work together to provide people with the option so that they can do what they need to do in a safe and secure way.

Oscar: Yeah, absolutely. In Canada, there is a major public sector within Canada, actually there are two tiers of public sector, right? Provincial and the federal government. So, I understand that each of them makes their own solutions, and there is a private sector. So, there are like, let’s say three main developers, the creators of details in these solutions. Have you found solutions that were not properly designed and what was the effect of those?

Joni: In the Canadian ecosystem we do have jurisdictional governments. We have our federal government, which is a collaborative, all of us working together. And then we have provincial governments and territorial governments as well. Then of course as municipalities. So, we have the different layers of the governments and then we have the different private sector industries. And some of those industries are federally regulated like finance, and some are not.

So, what makes that space interesting as well is that when it comes to your legal instantiation for who you are, this is really spread out in Canada. And so, if you’re born in Canada, your legal instantiation for who you are is with your jurisdiction where you were born. If you immigrated to Canada, your legal route of your identity sits with the federal government.

So really the federal government is in fact a very large customer of digital credentials or digital verification. Unless you’ve immigrated. But if you’ve not emigrated like the majority of Canadians, then the federal government is a customer there to know who you are. So there does need to be a collaborative. And I would say that both in the public sector and in the private sector. It’s very important to focus on all of the element’s – trust and risk management, convenience of use. And if solutions are poorly designed, then it leaves people not happy with the experience and not trusting the experience.

So, whether we’re using a solution from public sector or private sector, it’s also very important to do the user testing and the alpha testing and the launch to see how were people experiencing the service? Were they able to produce the information that they needed to produce to take part in this service?

Because that user experience, we only have a small opportunity to create a delightful, secure experience with the people that are using the services. So poor design or in fact, it may be great design from a technical perspective. But without doing that user experience testing and finding that people’s – their emotion and how they felt while they were using the service wasn’t there. That can lead to a low adoption, low trust, and people will feel that and they will sense that and maybe they don’t come back to the solution again. Or maybe they feel, ‘oh, this was terrible’ and they tell other people.

So yeah, I think it can’t be stressed enough that as you’re designing, public and private sector, to really work with your small set of users to see; how are they experiencing the solution? In addition to, of course, the priorities. Making sure that it’s safe and secure and using data minimisation. And all of those techniques that we would want to use for privacy and have in service.

Oscar: Yes and related to that, and checking now the picture. We can see that they said the majority of Canadians believe that both government and private companies should work together to create a digital I.T framework. And I can see in the three years where this survey has been executed, it keeps growing. That’s the feeling of the public. That the collaboration needs to be strong. So how is that resonating with the ones who create the data services?

Joni: It is an interesting finding, right? And I do think it’s interesting to how people seem to hold the governments a little bit more accountable. The higher percent. So, 91-92%, they want that access to that data. I was in fact surprised that it’s a little bit lower expectation for the private sector. Around 87%, still close but a little bit lower.

And I think what that means is something that we all experience ourselves as well, where one person, no matter what, you know, in our lives, we Oscar is Oscar and Johnny as Johnny. Sometimes our person is work business, school, sometimes we’re a patient with our doctor. So, we have these different experiences within our lives. We are the centre of all of them. Us being at the centre is a priority to making sure that as we move through these different solutions and services, we are the constant. And we can then use data and present data as we’re moving through those contacts of the type of transaction that we’re trying to provide. And so, while let’s say for example, quite often we’re asked to show government issued ID.

Now, we know that we need to be able to authenticate, we need to have a verified identity and we need to be able to authenticate in a verified way to government to say, okay, this is data about us, and we want to use that data. Yes, but quite often we don’t log into government necessarily, maybe every day. Maybe if we’re at a certain phase in our life or a certain time of the year, yes, we do authenticate the government, but more often than not, we’re using that government issued data, that government issued credential to open a bank account or to go onto an aeroplane or check into a hotel.

So, the areas where the data about us that has different levels of verification, whether that’s our driver’s license, which for us is a provincial or territorial credential. Or a passport, which is a federal credential. Or maybe something like a verified address for the bank that we’ve been banking with over the last five or ten years.

Where becomes very interesting is, again, the constant in all of those equations is that there’s one person at the centre of them. And so having that collaborative, it’s very important to bridge the gap to not only are you, as a government, solving the primary use case, that is your most priority. Maybe it’s how do I authenticate the government or you as a bank are solving your use case. How do I authenticate you to access your financial information? Really, people need to traverse across both of those contexts and across many different contexts.

So, collaboration is the way forward and people do get that sense. And as you said that desire for collaboration has really grown over time.

Oscar: Okay, excellent. So, you are having, say, perceiving that – I’m sure you talk very often with people from all the governments. Plus, people from the private sector then, in the country. So that’s something you are already perceiving.

Joni: Yeah, absolutely. And of course, each group of stakeholders. If it’s a good government or like finance or credit networks or other. Each group has their priority use cases. And one of the things that we look at in our ecosystem in the DIACC is what are those common use cases we’re most concerned with. Really, where those ecosystems work together. Where we’re using government issued credentials to open a bank account, for example. That’s a great use case because the financial institutions want to lower their Know Your Customer anti-money laundering costs. We bring these types of government credentials into a physical bank all the time. So how can people use those credentials digitally? And how can each party be sure that the right level of risk is managed? And that’s where we focus on DIACC.

So, for us, use cases that centre around Know Your Customer anti-money laundering, they’re very powerful use cases. There is a global framework on Know Your Customer and anti-money laundering, and this is a place where we always see collaboration between public and private sector is an important feature. That’s one of the areas where we see a lot of commonalities, for example. Not the only area, but definitely one of the areas where that commonality exists.

Oscar: Yeah, this research is super fascinating indeed. I will ask you a final question, for all the business leaders that are listening to us now. What is the one actionable idea that they should write on their agenda today?

Joni: I would say that this research should be used as an additive tool. It’s all available. And so, if you’re an English speaker or a French speaker, it’s available in our website, DIACC.ca. I would also say that one of the things that we focus on within the DIACC. Because we are not developing the technical standards or the technical open-source code for the methodology for how to move forward. What we’ve developed is a very high level and prescriptive risk management framework. And so, one of the things that we see in our ecosystem is that; a single solution that is one size fits all doesn’t map to the ecosystem, really. Ecosystems are living things and sometimes there’s more security needed, sometimes less. There are different conditions.

So, I would say for one activity for people, business leaders who are listening today is to; try to evaluate your risk. Maybe you already have. Evaluate the types of risk that you have within your ecosystem. And then look at something like our Pan-Canadian Trust Framework or risk management framework to determine, be sure that you are managing the risks that need to be managed to ensure that there is a duty of care that is set out. How do your customers expect to be cared for? How do your partners expect to be cared for? When they’re interacting with a solution or service. And then make sure you’re mitigating those risks.

We provide one tool, The Pan-Canadian Trust Framework. As a tool to help people measure and make sure that they’re mitigating risks in a verifiable way. And this helps decision makers to then adopt solutions today, while looking forward to knowing where and how these solutions might interact. Should I interact with another ecosystem? Are they managing risk in the same way that I am?

Whereas the technical solution for; Do I need to transform this data model? The software engineers I have all the confidence and the software engineers to solve. How do we transform from one data model to another? And using tools like risk management frameworks, like the pan-Canadian trust framework. Can help you to know, should you be looking at how you interact with different sets of credentials or different solutions or different ecosystems?

So, know your risk, manage your risk. Do your duty to care for your customers, clients, citizens and residents. And the rest of the ecosystem will evolve as it does. And we’ll continue to work together to make sure that people are at the centre. Privacy is enhanced and that people have transparency and control in this evolving and emerging digital ecosystem.

Oscar: Excellent and for our listeners, we’re going to put in the show notes, the links to this research. So you can find it from there, from the show notes. Thanks a lot, Joni, it was a really interesting conversation. So let us know how people can follow this conversation with you or find more information all the work you’re doing.

Joni: Thanks so much, Oscar. Yeah, it’s been a real pleasure. I’m so glad to be back. I really appreciate the work that you’re doing with this podcast, having very interesting and insightful conversations. For people who would like to continue the conversation with us. You can find us at DIACC.ca. That’s our website. And then we do a lot of sharing and conversations in our LinkedIn group. Which you can find us at The Digital ID and Authentication Council of Canada in our LinkedIn Group, which is quite active.

So, we’d love to connect with you and continue the discussion from today.

Oscar: Okay. Fantastic. Again, thanks a lot, Joni. All the best.

Joni: Thanks, Oscar.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Let’s Talk About Digital Identity produced by Ubisecure. Stay up to date with episode at ubisecure.com/podcast or join us on Twitter @ubisecure and use the #LTADI. Until next time.